Curse

UnChosen · Jun 16, 2010, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If you've looked at the trend of armbraces since DwG was buffed, you'd see that it is a fairly large problem. Now, it doesn't really affect me at this point because i have no armbraces(lolban), but armbraces in the ~10 ecto range are *not* good. I know they're not there yet, but there will come a time in the next few months where the price of armbraces will hit that mark. People will suddenly realize that any random group with no real coordination that can clear doa is a problem. Even worse, as certain people start to think that they're amazing and want faster times, the rank requirement will be set at 10/8, and as previously stated, people will learn that rt/me are the fastest and most reliable options. Class and rank discrimination is a no-no that anet is already not fond of, and once that becomes bad enough, the nerf will come and beat the crap out of DwG. Unfortunately, the damage will already be done at this point.

All i can say is, have fun with your "WTS Armbrace 10e"

Price of items does not prove anything. If anything the price of armbraces before was inflated because of the lack of pugs even in NORMAL mode. You know, the mode where the average players should have some decent rate of success because hard mode is for the "pro" players...or so people on here say when they were QQing about Ursan/CoP/SF/600+Smite...

Morphy · Jun 16, 2010, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Too bad you don't see the same vigor when it comes to copy and pasting UNDERUSED skills/builds and requesting a buff.

Because buffs are much more harmful to balance and the game as a whole if implemented poorly than nerfs. The worst thing that can happen if you overnerf something is that it won't see use anymore. Big whoop. You lose one skill. The worst thing that can happen if you overbuff something in PvP is that it can dumb down the metagame and in PvE that it completely dominates the metagame for the next 3 years while also making the game more easy. I don't really care that much about PvE skill balance because I believe the problem lies in the mob composition and poor AI, but if these were done well, overpowered shit like this skill wouldn't have a role in it.

Quote:

Not to mention the latest nerf requests are getting more and more thoughtless and ridiculous. DoA NORMAL mode that still takes over an hour is now "imbalanced"? What happened to hard mode?

You can still get stuff for Armbraces in NM, I believe the point is that an elite area shouldn't be possible with mindless builds such as these.

Essence Snow · Jun 16, 2010, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

You can still get stuff for Armbraces in NM, I believe the point is that an elite area shouldn't be possible with mindless builds such as these.

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

Some people are simply upset that their stock-pile of ambraces is not retaining it's value. Personnaly I think it is great that it has breathed some life into DoA. Are people upset that UW and FoW can be cleared in NM in 1hr +? There are dungeons that can be cleared in HM, that drop high-end weaps in <10mins not using DwG. (I think we all know what is still used)

Not speaking for PvP...(there must be a PvP issue since Morphy is in on the issue), but in PvE, the only ones upset should be the DoA SC guilds and those hoarding braces. I have no sympathy for those who complain b/c of greed.

byteme! · Jun 16, 2010, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Just in the last month or so I've seen...

Nerf Soul Reaping
Nerf Energy Storage (ER)
Nerf SoS
Nerf Mark of Pain (And whatever else is used in Manlyway)
Nerf Critical Agility and Warrior's Endurance
Nerf Jagged Strike + Fox Fang + DB combo chain
Nerf Shadow form more
Nerf Assassin's promise
Nerf "YMLD!" + EVAS + "FH!"
Nerf Discord(Way)
Nerf DwG

People are basically just picking every decent build that doesn't fit in convention definition of "balanced" team and starts whining about it. I mean nearly every build in the "great" category on PvXWiki had been asked for nerf in the last two months, its like people are just looking up every good build on that site, Ctrl C + Ctrl V, and typing nerf after that.

This is the results of Anet giving in to whining so many times without actually balancing the game. Now everyone are jumping on the QQ bandwagon hoping they'll get a piece of "screwing with other people's gameplay"

This 110%. God you people and your QQ posts are annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If you've looked at the trend of armbraces since DwG was buffed, you'd see that it is a fairly large problem. Now, it doesn't really affect me at this point because i have no armbraces(lolban), but armbraces in the ~10 ecto range are *not* good. I know they're not there yet, but there will come a time in the next few months where the price of armbraces will hit that mark. People will suddenly realize that any random group with no real coordination that can clear doa is a problem. Even worse, as certain people start to think that they're amazing and want faster times, the rank requirement will be set at 10/8, and as previously stated, people will learn that rt/me are the fastest and most reliable options. Class and rank discrimination is a no-no that anet is already not fond of, and once that becomes bad enough, the nerf will come and beat the crap out of DwG. Unfortunately, the damage will already be done at this point.

All i can say is, have fun with your "WTS Armbrace 10e"

Oh no the world is coming to an end. Armbraces are dropping in price. Is this the only thing you care about? Show me in writing where it states armbraces in a "player driven" economy is supposed to have a fixed price where deflation doesn't/can't exist. If you think having cheap armbraces is bad for the game you are dead wrong. It's only bad for a "very" small portion of the player base who have hoarded them. For everyone else it's win win. I've hoarded armbraces too but you don't see me crying a river now do you? This community never seems to give up on this crap.

PS: I will have fun with my 10e armbraces and my 5e armbraces. It's makes zero difference to me. It's still a bloody effin video game. GW is srs business ZOMGWTFBBQHAXORZ!

HigherMinion · Jun 16, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

I thought DwG was only run in Normal Mode in DoA? I thought it wasn't very effective in Hard Mode in DoA? I thought if you had to resort to Normal Mode for a certain build it isn't OP.

Meh.

Morphy · Jun 16, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

Some people are simply upset that their stock-pile of ambraces is not retaining it's value. Personnaly I think it is great that it has breathed some life into DoA. Are people upset that UW and FoW can be cleared in NM in 1hr +? There are dungeons that can be cleared in HM, that drop high-end weaps in <10mins not using DwG. (I think we all know what is still used)

Not speaking for PvP...(there must be a PvP issue since Morphy is in on the issue), but in PvE, the only ones upset should be the DoA SC guilds and those hoarding braces. I have no sympathy for those who complain b/c of greed.

(Good) PvP doesn't become mindless through repetition, it gets more interesting the better a player gets at it as he understands more and more of the game. The same should be true for PvE. GW PvE's complete lack of a learning curve (it's basically a flat line) is caused by the lack of proper AI and poor mob composition. That's a pretty fundamental problem and the reason I think any "PvE skillbalance" in the current situation is a waste of time.

In my opinion, the elite areas are the best place to start improving the AI and mob composition because they're supposed to be challenging. Only after that the poorly balanced skills come into the picture. Eventually, if reaching a challenging and enjoyable game is the goal, these have to be balanced. If that's not the goal, I really couldn't care less about how overpowered skills are. Make them even more powercreeped and crazy overpowered for all I care.

There currently aren't any serious DwG issues in GvG that I'm aware of so I'm not here to adress that.

Concerning economy stuff, I have a lack of interest and knowledge to properly discuss that.

Horace Slughorn · Jun 16, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

My armbraces aint worth what they used to be. So I'm for the nerf. honestly

micut12 · Jun 16, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Dude who the fck do u think u are acting all mighty and telling ANet what to nerf? If u want ANet to nerf DwG then i want ANet to perma ban u, just by guessing ur a guy who cant even use DwG
/not signed

kiddster · Jun 16, 2010, 02:53 PM // 14:53

/signed .....this is like the days of easy chaos planes farm. areas like this shouldn't be this easy to clear. Even if this has made more people wanting to do doa...they could of before by making a mesmer/necro/ele/monk/sin and farming r7-8 lb like most of the players did to even join most doa guilds.

HigherMinion · Jun 16, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Wow listen to you Kiddster. Singling out alot of the demographic.

You expect for people to play happily in the Domain of Anguish; you must farm Lightbringer points elsewhere, join a DoASC-specific guild and acquire a certain profession to play? That sounds terribly elitist not to mention fag logic.

Fahhhh · Jun 16, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

So what if PUG's can now clear DoA in NM? I would think thats a good thing, makes elite areas more friendly to the casual player. Plus I like the idea of having PUG's in elite areas again. I miss those days.

As for armbrace prices all I have to say is investing in a commodity is dangerous as prices are subject to fluctuation. If you invested in armbraces and the price crashes...well sucks to be you.

Xenomortis · Jun 16, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I thought if you had to resort to Normal Mode for a certain build it isn't OP.

The Domain of Anguish is supposed to be an elite area.
That is, it is supposed to be difficult and require a bit of skill and coordination to beat, even in NM.

vandevere · Jun 16, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Domain of Anguish is supposed to be an elite area.
That is, it is supposed to be difficult and require a bit of skill and coordination to beat, even in NM.

In other words, keep the peons out, so they don't get their grubby little fingers on your stash...

Honestly, if that's the only reason you're demanding a nerf-to reinforce the barriers between the elite and the peons-you have no ground for your demand.

People have the right to cobble together any build they want. And, if it works, well, good for them!

The Build isn't OP, otherwise it would be rolling through NM much faster.

There's only two reasons you're demanding this nerf.

1)Jealousy 'cause you don't want the peons in your playground

2)Greed because, as stated above, you don't want the peons getting what you think belongs to you.

However, we have all paid for this game-the elites and the peons alike-so they have as much right to be in the DoA as you do.

Further, this nerf demand can very easily be viewed as Class Warfare; the wealthy elite trying to get the developers to enact nerfs for the sole purpose of keeping the lesser folk out of their playground. I sincerely hope the developers don't listen to you this time. But, if they do, I'll end this post with a timely reminder of what happened when a great nation tried to do that to its people...

Bastille Day.

Need I say more?

Xenomortis · Jun 16, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

In other words, keep the peons out, so they don't get their grubby little fingers on your stash...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), is an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy. The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

I don't do the Domain of Anguish very often. In fact, I've hardly been there and have never faced Mallyx (but I've done the prerequisite quests). I don't care how many people do or what their rewards are.

The Domain of Anguish is atrociously designed. The only way your average player is going to get through is to join a team of good people or people running a strong team build that can carry them through, or for them to resort to some gimmick or AI exploit - the latter is more common.

The fix to this is a redesign. Average players should be able to get through (slowly and with difficult and a very real threat of failure) while stronger players would be able to clear it much more quickly and efficiently.

Despite the fact that a redesign isn't ever to going to happen, I do not advocate near mindless builds that allow clearing. Players should have to learn how to actually play the game and why things work before successfully completing an elite area.
The requirement of competence is not an unfair one.

vandevere · Jun 16, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I don't do the Domain of Anguish very often. In fact, I've hardly been there and have never faced Mallyx (but I've done the prerequisite quests). I don't care how many people do or what their rewards are.

The Domain of Anguish is atrociously designed. The only way your average player is going to get through is to join a team of good people or people running a strong team build that can carry them through, or for them to resort to some gimmick or AI exploit - the latter is more common.

The fix to this is a redesign. Average players should be able to get through (slowly and with difficult and a very real threat of failure) while stronger players would be able to clear it much more quickly and efficiently.

Despite the fact that a redesign isn't ever to going to happen, I do not advocate near mindless builds that allow clearing. Players should have to learn how to actually play the game and why things work before successfully completing an elite area.
The requirement of competence is not an unfair one.

First off, the OP-ness of a build should really be the only criteria for whether a build gets nerfed or not. By those criteria-seeing as it's NM, and it still takes more than an hour to complete-DWG isn't OP.

So, you would like the guys to play a little better according to your own, personal-and, might I add, highly subjective standards. That's all well and good.

But you don't have the right to demand nerfs to force other players to meet your standards of gameplay. And, whether you deny it or not, that is what you're demanding.

Xenomortis · Jun 16, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

First off, the OP-ness of a build should really be the only criteria for whether a build gets nerfed or not. By those criteria-seeing as it's NM, and it still takes more than an hour to complete-DWG isn't OP.

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).
Anything that enables those same incompetent players to complete an elite area in Hard Mode is both broken and over powered.

Broken ≠ Over powered.

I don't know anything about the DWG build, how long it takes or what it actually does. But if it fulfills the above, then it needs changing.

vandevere · Jun 16, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).
Anything that enables those same incompetent players to complete an elite area in Hard Mode is both broken and over powered.

Broken ≠ Over powered.

I don't know anything about the DWG build, how long it takes or what it actually does. But if it fulfills the above, then it needs changing.

First, you have to prove the above-stated incompetence. And you can't use circular reasoning, and say that their using DWG is proof of incompetence. I need other proof, and not subjective "proof".

You claim the pugs are incompetent. I need empirical, scientifically derived evidence of your claim

Besides, the good players have HM anyway. You claim you want DoA to be active; and it is now...

Further, as you have stated, you say you don't know anything about the DWG build. Don't you think you should know a little more about the skill you want to have nerfed?

Xenomortis · Jun 16, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

First, you have to prove the above-stated incompetence. And you can't use circular reasoning, and say that their using DWG is proof of incompetence. I need other proof, and not subjective "proof".

No. It needs defining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

You claim the pugs are incompetent. I need empirical, scientifically derived evidence of your claim

Besides, the good players have HM anyway. You claim you want DoA to be active; and it is now...

I have claimed neither of these.

own age myname · Jun 16, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).

Believe me, incompetent players aren't going anywhere in DoA. PUGs fail plenty, trust me.

Del · Jun 16, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

All of pve is mindless.